Based on the comments, I updated the article with cultural context on use of English in India - be sure to check out the update. Thanks everyone for sharing!
Wonderful, insightful piece once again. "...unaware of the history of English in India..." speaks volumes about Americans and their geographical/historical prowess. The woman's husband who is her uncle, and the following discussion of the spouse of their spouse's sibling reminded of: https://open.spotify.com/track/3O9ZumpsBwsBCEJ1BUotZA?si=da7c6c6cda614f00 "I'm My Own Grandpa." The piece also speaks volumes about how complicated Indo-European cultures in general can be. Hard for us simpletons to follow...
Growing up in India and now living in Australia, I've had so many instances of using Indian English, I could add to this list.
Most recently, I used the word "Fooding" as in "Fooding and Lodging" in an email; only to be asked by my colleague what it meant. I argued it's a word used for "Meals" and used in common parlance. Until we both hit up Cambridge.com which said it was Indian English. 😄
I am landing in Mumbai shortly and I am looking forward to meeting my many childhood aunties and uncles as well as my co-sister in Bangalore. My son refuses to say that my brother’s daughter is his sister. No, she is my cousin, he insists, and he is right, but Sahil, she is really your sister, I say;) And finally, the American in me hopes not to pass out from the summer heat 🥵 like in Rome last year. 💯 authentic article and puts me in a mood for Desh!😀
lol, hi Anu! Sahil is smart but he may find having a big sister in India helpful! Monsoons are in town, so you should be safe from the heat! Thanks for sharing, what a fun story.
I guess it's due to having spent a fair amount of time hanging with folks for whom English is a second or third language that I immediately understood, had no problem with, your examples of Indian English, excepting co-sister or brother. That took me a bit to even roughly figure out.
The use of auntie and uncle by children to address any friend of the family close enough to be on a first name basis with the adults in the family was quite common in the south while I was growing up. I don't know if that's still true today or not.
A Japanese friend, who has English as a third language, after French, told me about an international conference she attended where English, not unusual of course , was the common and official conference language. One of the other attendees mentioned in a group conversation, the the only folks who's English he had any problem understanding were the Americans and Englishmen. Just about everybody in the group nodded agreement. That surprised be until I thought about it and realized how different second language English is from native English.
Actually, as you probably already know, you thoroughly cosmopolitan young lady, there are words and phrases that the meaning of such differ enough in American English, English English , or Australian English that while acceptable in one's own country, can in one of the other two countries to get you in a bar fight. ;-)
lol. thanks for the laugh, Jim. I stay away from all suspect words as you guessed!
I understand what you mean - traveling in Europe is also an experience in hearing different ways of speaking English.
Regarding English as second language being different, the situation is reversed for Indians as English has been an official language for over 275 years so it very much feels like a native language to many, especially being educated in the 'English medium' schools.
The different local languages create the need for a common language (as Dale also points out) and English is the default for most adults, government offices, private companies, universities etc.
Hanging out at any coffee shop or a bus stop where parents pick up their kids will most often show a surfeit of American phrases in English conversations as the US influence has grown relatively strong because of US tech companies, TV shows, YouTube vying with older British ways of speaking English.
So now we have a hodge podge of US, British, and Indian mix all circulating in the air at the same time depending on the environment. lol.
Thanks for sharing, and for the feedback on the essay.
p.s. The co-sister/co-brother still confuses me when I am at a wedding, and have to get someone to clarify it for me slooowwly. :-)
I married a Filipina whose family lived in the Zambales region of Luzon but hailed from Ilocos Norte in Northern Luzon. Their native tongue was Ilocano but they all spoke Zambal in their new hometown. There may be as many as 7000 islands in the Philippine Archipelago and there are also many geographic features that have kept people segregated for millennium. Given that, there are many different ethnicities and distinct languages there. In grammar school my wife, and her schoolmates, were taught Spanish, English and Tagalog. Tagalog is one of the languages native to the Manila area and was chosen to be the common "unifying" language of the country. The majority of the population speaks their own regional native language or dialect, Tagalog and English. Levels of expertise vary depending on how financially successful one wants to be. My wife speaks, Ilocano, Zambal, Tagalog, Spanish and English. I speak only English...and some pidgen Hawaiian and Japanese I learned while residing there for a period of years.
Sounds like Indians and Filipinos have a lot in common with regard to the value of kinship. Get any two random Filipinos together anywhere on Earth and the first thing they do is try to figure out to what degree they are cousins. I swear they are all related. There are many words they have to describe the degree of kinship. More than I can comprehend. Imagine something vastly more complicated and descriptive than "My first cousin Cordapio's third cousin once removed's eldest uncle's niece's daughter's husband's second-born son's great maternal grandmothers second cousin's nephew's wife's granddaughter...." There's a word or short phrase for that. And then imagine the response, "Oh, you mean that lovely girl Aurora Carpio Regaspi. Yes, I know her." And then there is the reverence and respect for elders. My two daughters were born in Hawaii and began grammar school in Seal Beach, California. They were born 11 months apart and were practically "twins". They had been taught to show respect by calling each other Manang Sally and Ading Susan. That translates roughly to Elder sister Sally and Younger sister Susan. Sally came to me at age 6 and told me that all the kids in school called her "Manang" and called Susan, in kindergarten, "Ading" and it was upsetting them both. It upset them because the age differential wasn't being applied appropriately...and that the other kids just thought that it was their real first names. I told them it was OK for them to drop the honorifics at school and that the other kids had meant no disrespect, and that soon they'd be just Sally and Susan again. Fast forward 40 years. I was visiting my eldest daughter in Kansas and she took me on a tour of the large laboratory she was in charge of. I noticed that all the workers were calling her "Sally". I nudged my daughter and said, "Geez, Sally, I can hardly stand it, them calling you "Sally". Make them call you "Doctor Flowers". Sally gave me a puzzled look and then started laughing. I told her, "You're a smart kid, Manang Sally." Which was a total malapropism as I am her dad. In Tagalog, to me, she is simply Sally.
Over a ten-year period I got my wife's family to the U.S. Three sisters-in-law and two brothers-in-law call me Manong Dale. But the eldest brother-in-law, a retired Navy Chief Petty Officer, calls me "Ading Dale". As it turns out "Ading" simply means "younger sibling or younger person upon whom I am currently gazing and speaking to". Yes, I am a genderless Brother-in-law to Manong Bert. Bert is 3 years older than me. Manang (f), Manong (m), Ading (n). English is less difficult for me, it is so, yes it is, it is as if I was born to speak it, yes? Yes. Hat's off to everyone fluent in one language, and I really admire those fluent in 2 or more. My eldest daughter is fluent in English, Spanish, Brazilian Portuguese and can read textbooks in Dutch. Both daughters can get the gist of a conversation in Ilocano but cannot speak it.
What a great share, Dale! Thanks for the intricate details of how Filipino languages and relative naming work—I learned something new.
Yes, Asian countries have many things in common, and watching any Korean or Japanese TV shows instantly highlights these similarities.
What a fun story about your daughters' names being misunderstood at school because of the honorific titles.
Naming is also a big issue for Indians when they arrive in the US, as first names are often the names of villages, and their own names come a poor third, after their father's name. Many end up dropping their family names to fit into the US system of simple first and last names.
I know many individuals from China who change their first names to something easier for the same reason. When meeting someone from China, be sure to ask what their Chinese name is—it's nice to learn!
Much enjoyed this Jayshree. As a youngster growing up in northeast England in the late 1950s and early 60s we also used Uncle and Aunty for adults to which there was no familial connection. Sometimes we were given permission to drop the prefix by younger adults.
Based on the comments, I updated the article with cultural context on use of English in India - be sure to check out the update. Thanks everyone for sharing!
https://jayshreegururaj.substack.com/i/146573963/cultural-context
Wonderful, insightful piece once again. "...unaware of the history of English in India..." speaks volumes about Americans and their geographical/historical prowess. The woman's husband who is her uncle, and the following discussion of the spouse of their spouse's sibling reminded of: https://open.spotify.com/track/3O9ZumpsBwsBCEJ1BUotZA?si=da7c6c6cda614f00 "I'm My Own Grandpa." The piece also speaks volumes about how complicated Indo-European cultures in general can be. Hard for us simpletons to follow...
Hilarious.
Growing up in India and now living in Australia, I've had so many instances of using Indian English, I could add to this list.
Most recently, I used the word "Fooding" as in "Fooding and Lodging" in an email; only to be asked by my colleague what it meant. I argued it's a word used for "Meals" and used in common parlance. Until we both hit up Cambridge.com which said it was Indian English. 😄
I have seen Food and Lodging signs, but not the end of 'ing' - funny!Thanks for sharing!
Jayshree for an insightful and enlightening look at the English language from the perspective of an East Indian speaker. Wonderful!
Hi Jayshree,
I am landing in Mumbai shortly and I am looking forward to meeting my many childhood aunties and uncles as well as my co-sister in Bangalore. My son refuses to say that my brother’s daughter is his sister. No, she is my cousin, he insists, and he is right, but Sahil, she is really your sister, I say;) And finally, the American in me hopes not to pass out from the summer heat 🥵 like in Rome last year. 💯 authentic article and puts me in a mood for Desh!😀
lol, hi Anu! Sahil is smart but he may find having a big sister in India helpful! Monsoons are in town, so you should be safe from the heat! Thanks for sharing, what a fun story.
Excellent essay, Thanks!
I guess it's due to having spent a fair amount of time hanging with folks for whom English is a second or third language that I immediately understood, had no problem with, your examples of Indian English, excepting co-sister or brother. That took me a bit to even roughly figure out.
The use of auntie and uncle by children to address any friend of the family close enough to be on a first name basis with the adults in the family was quite common in the south while I was growing up. I don't know if that's still true today or not.
A Japanese friend, who has English as a third language, after French, told me about an international conference she attended where English, not unusual of course , was the common and official conference language. One of the other attendees mentioned in a group conversation, the the only folks who's English he had any problem understanding were the Americans and Englishmen. Just about everybody in the group nodded agreement. That surprised be until I thought about it and realized how different second language English is from native English.
Actually, as you probably already know, you thoroughly cosmopolitan young lady, there are words and phrases that the meaning of such differ enough in American English, English English , or Australian English that while acceptable in one's own country, can in one of the other two countries to get you in a bar fight. ;-)
lol. thanks for the laugh, Jim. I stay away from all suspect words as you guessed!
I understand what you mean - traveling in Europe is also an experience in hearing different ways of speaking English.
Regarding English as second language being different, the situation is reversed for Indians as English has been an official language for over 275 years so it very much feels like a native language to many, especially being educated in the 'English medium' schools.
The different local languages create the need for a common language (as Dale also points out) and English is the default for most adults, government offices, private companies, universities etc.
Hanging out at any coffee shop or a bus stop where parents pick up their kids will most often show a surfeit of American phrases in English conversations as the US influence has grown relatively strong because of US tech companies, TV shows, YouTube vying with older British ways of speaking English.
So now we have a hodge podge of US, British, and Indian mix all circulating in the air at the same time depending on the environment. lol.
Thanks for sharing, and for the feedback on the essay.
p.s. The co-sister/co-brother still confuses me when I am at a wedding, and have to get someone to clarify it for me slooowwly. :-)
I married a Filipina whose family lived in the Zambales region of Luzon but hailed from Ilocos Norte in Northern Luzon. Their native tongue was Ilocano but they all spoke Zambal in their new hometown. There may be as many as 7000 islands in the Philippine Archipelago and there are also many geographic features that have kept people segregated for millennium. Given that, there are many different ethnicities and distinct languages there. In grammar school my wife, and her schoolmates, were taught Spanish, English and Tagalog. Tagalog is one of the languages native to the Manila area and was chosen to be the common "unifying" language of the country. The majority of the population speaks their own regional native language or dialect, Tagalog and English. Levels of expertise vary depending on how financially successful one wants to be. My wife speaks, Ilocano, Zambal, Tagalog, Spanish and English. I speak only English...and some pidgen Hawaiian and Japanese I learned while residing there for a period of years.
Sounds like Indians and Filipinos have a lot in common with regard to the value of kinship. Get any two random Filipinos together anywhere on Earth and the first thing they do is try to figure out to what degree they are cousins. I swear they are all related. There are many words they have to describe the degree of kinship. More than I can comprehend. Imagine something vastly more complicated and descriptive than "My first cousin Cordapio's third cousin once removed's eldest uncle's niece's daughter's husband's second-born son's great maternal grandmothers second cousin's nephew's wife's granddaughter...." There's a word or short phrase for that. And then imagine the response, "Oh, you mean that lovely girl Aurora Carpio Regaspi. Yes, I know her." And then there is the reverence and respect for elders. My two daughters were born in Hawaii and began grammar school in Seal Beach, California. They were born 11 months apart and were practically "twins". They had been taught to show respect by calling each other Manang Sally and Ading Susan. That translates roughly to Elder sister Sally and Younger sister Susan. Sally came to me at age 6 and told me that all the kids in school called her "Manang" and called Susan, in kindergarten, "Ading" and it was upsetting them both. It upset them because the age differential wasn't being applied appropriately...and that the other kids just thought that it was their real first names. I told them it was OK for them to drop the honorifics at school and that the other kids had meant no disrespect, and that soon they'd be just Sally and Susan again. Fast forward 40 years. I was visiting my eldest daughter in Kansas and she took me on a tour of the large laboratory she was in charge of. I noticed that all the workers were calling her "Sally". I nudged my daughter and said, "Geez, Sally, I can hardly stand it, them calling you "Sally". Make them call you "Doctor Flowers". Sally gave me a puzzled look and then started laughing. I told her, "You're a smart kid, Manang Sally." Which was a total malapropism as I am her dad. In Tagalog, to me, she is simply Sally.
Over a ten-year period I got my wife's family to the U.S. Three sisters-in-law and two brothers-in-law call me Manong Dale. But the eldest brother-in-law, a retired Navy Chief Petty Officer, calls me "Ading Dale". As it turns out "Ading" simply means "younger sibling or younger person upon whom I am currently gazing and speaking to". Yes, I am a genderless Brother-in-law to Manong Bert. Bert is 3 years older than me. Manang (f), Manong (m), Ading (n). English is less difficult for me, it is so, yes it is, it is as if I was born to speak it, yes? Yes. Hat's off to everyone fluent in one language, and I really admire those fluent in 2 or more. My eldest daughter is fluent in English, Spanish, Brazilian Portuguese and can read textbooks in Dutch. Both daughters can get the gist of a conversation in Ilocano but cannot speak it.
A tidbit: "Hindi" in Tagalog means "Nope".
What a great share, Dale! Thanks for the intricate details of how Filipino languages and relative naming work—I learned something new.
Yes, Asian countries have many things in common, and watching any Korean or Japanese TV shows instantly highlights these similarities.
What a fun story about your daughters' names being misunderstood at school because of the honorific titles.
Naming is also a big issue for Indians when they arrive in the US, as first names are often the names of villages, and their own names come a poor third, after their father's name. Many end up dropping their family names to fit into the US system of simple first and last names.
I know many individuals from China who change their first names to something easier for the same reason. When meeting someone from China, be sure to ask what their Chinese name is—it's nice to learn!
Thanks again for the stories!
Very interesting and informative
Thanks, Terry. Glad to hear it.
I love learning about and hearing how English is used in different cultures.
I am thinking of writing more on this in the 'on a lighter note,' series as I gather more examples :-)
You definitely should! I wrote about American English here, and people enjoyed that: https://open.substack.com/pub/terryfreedman/p/the-great-american-language?r=18suih&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
Much enjoyed this Jayshree. As a youngster growing up in northeast England in the late 1950s and early 60s we also used Uncle and Aunty for adults to which there was no familial connection. Sometimes we were given permission to drop the prefix by younger adults.
lol, what a wonderful share - I did not know that! Hence, the practice here! Pretty cool. Thanks, Harry.
This was so great! Thank you. Language differences and their history are so interesting.
True. Glad you liked it, Mary! Thanks for the feedback.